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If men became pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament. 
12th-Mar-2006 08:54 am

Hmmm. Meanwhile, , a New York man and a men's rights think tank are fighting for a dude's right to be a deadbeat dad. No, really. They are arguing that equal protection demands that men have the right to walk away from their children because women have the right to abort fetuses.
11th-Mar-2006 02:14 pm (UTC)
Apple? Orange? Yeah, they look alike to me.
11th-Mar-2006 02:47 pm (UTC)
THAT is going to make me very angry
11th-Mar-2006 03:23 pm (UTC)
The guy who filed the lawsuit is actually in Saginaw, Michigan--minutes from where I grew up. Fortunately, MY dad, 43 years ago, stepped up to the plate and took responsibility for the consequences of his raging hormones (as did my mom). From my perspective, they've gotten a LOT out their "mistake", aggravation to pride. But as my wise grandmother used to say, it takes two to tango...maybe it has gotten to the point where there needs to be a pre-coital agreement signed to make sure that both rompers are clear on what happens when there's an "oops"....
11th-Mar-2006 05:06 pm (UTC)
If all it were about was financial responsibility I could say OK I can see the man's point.

The difference as I see it is we as women go through nine months of swollen feet,backaches, morning sickness,hemmroids,strech marks, the emotional changes,medical complications during pregnancy and giving birth, and a body that will never go back to it's original shape. That's not even considering the financial cost of pregnancy and giving birth the child.

Once a man makes a child he can walk away where a woman must either choose carrying the child or abortion and all that each decision entails. Either way she pays a much higher price for that one *oops*.

Envirobear is right we're going to have to have pre-coital agreements before sex at this rate.

Sex is one of the few real pleasures in life why do so many want to legislate it to death? I swear some people are just ass backwards.


11th-Mar-2006 10:48 pm (UTC)
You think giving up ALL future rights to a child is not a HUGE choice to make too?
11th-Mar-2006 10:55 pm (UTC)
In this particular case, no. It is clear he didn't want a child to begin with, that is at least in part the crux of his argument. In future cases, they would all be subjective I suppose. But really, if one is even remotely serious in considering renouncing parental rights as an option, parenting cannot be that much of a priority and if it isn't then one shouldn't be a parent in the first place.
11th-Mar-2006 10:58 pm (UTC)
Well, obviously, but short of vasectomys, which a lot of people cannot afford, it's difficult.

She told him she was infertile, and as they were in a relationship (and presumably had a lot of sex without pregnancy before this) he believed her.

The fact is, if he knew she wasn't infertile, there was NO way he would have taken the risk of getting her pregnant. As it stood, he was told there WAS no risk. He didn't want to be a parent - she tricked him into it, and now he's paying for it for the next 18 years.
11th-Mar-2006 10:59 pm (UTC)
oops, I thought you were replying to my other comment :)
11th-Mar-2006 05:07 pm (UTC)
Actually in that particular case I agree with the plaintiff. The wife told him she was infertile, and then "magically" became pregnant after him telling her he did NOT want children. Why should HE have to pay for her lies?
11th-Mar-2006 10:44 pm (UTC)
For me, the issue here is accountability. If we fucked and I happened to be positive, but because I TOLD you I was negative and you took me at my word and later became infected as a result of unsafe sex, the bottom line is YOU still made the choice to engage in the behavior. Here in this particular scenario, the burden still rests ultimately with the woman (see sapphsmum's comment above, it pretty much sums my feelings up very well). This is too bandwagonesque, and while it is flawed and will likely not stand up to a firm ruling, it's detracting from the real issue of accountability for one's actions and self responsibility. Put it this way - I'm very much Pro-Choice, but before I'm Pro-Choice I'm Pro-Sexual Responsibility. All of this having been said, I do see your point and do not disagree entirely.
11th-Mar-2006 10:48 pm (UTC)
I did make the choice, and you are accountable for half my meds in some states, apparently.

I guess I have a hard time seeing this debate as an abortion would be immediate for me if I got pregnant.
13th-Mar-2006 04:39 pm (UTC)
I, too, would immediately abort if I ever became pregnant; I am childfree by choice.

And I, too, see the Plaintiff's point. It doesn't seem right that a woman can lie about being infertile, on birth control, etc., "oops" some poor guy into a fatherhood role he never asked for or wanted, then force him to pay for at least half the kid's expenses for the next couple of decades. If she's the only one who wants the kid, why shouldn't she pay for it herself?

As you mentioned, if a sex partner gave me HIV, I could force them to pay me restitution in some states. In some venues and under specific circumstances, they could even be criminally charged.

From a moral POV, I think walking away from your kid is bullshit. Both my parents walked away from me, and I hate them for it. However, if a guy is that repulsed by the idea of fatherhood, I feel it's better for the kid to just let him leave. While the law can currently force the guy to pay the kid's bills, no government edict will ever force him to love--or even like--the kid. The kid is better off without a parent like that. I know I would have been better off if my parents' rights had been terminated, instead of my childhood being spent in a terrifying limbo that did not end until my 18th birthday.

Let him terminate his responsibilities, but also all rights to that child. Do not allow him to rematerialize months or years later, claiming he's "found God" or some other such nonsense, and demanding his "rights."
13th-Mar-2006 05:36 pm (UTC)
Yes, you are criminally negligent if you do not inform someone about HIV/AIDS before having sex with them. It should be the same if you are pregnant, it is a lifelong responsibility.
12th-Mar-2006 12:48 am (UTC)
Jude I couldn't agree more! Pro-Sexual Responsibility is what I was taught and what I taught my daughters.

My parents taught me it was my body and if I got pregnant, short of being raped I knew ahead of time it could happen even with birth control. They said I was to be responsible to be sure I couldn't get pregnant and take care of things myself if it did because even IF a guy said he had a vasectomy ,people do lie and to keep that in mind.

They also taught me condoms break so I could choose to have sex and take the chance or wait. I didn't want to be pregnant like my Mom at 16 so I waited until I was ready for the possibility of getting pregnant.

My brothers were taught if you play you may have to pay so either keep it in your pants, have a vasectomy or be willing to pay child support for 18 years because again condoms break, and women do lie and get pregnant on the side on purpose. So being responsible was a two way street.

When I was dating all I had to worry about was possibly getting pregnant. When my daughters were dating in the late 1980s and through the mid 1990s I had to warn them that having sex could possibly mean a death sentance. Big difference so I stressed sexual responsibility *highly* along with responsibility for every aspect of their lives. I have a feeling that message is not taught to everyone.

Women can be raped and get pregnant even by partners and spouses so I think that abortion should be available and is not a vadid comparison for this guy. If he was taught to be responsible for his body and what comes out of it knowing people, even those you love lie then he wouldn't be in this fix. He's still getting off easy just paying child support because he won't have to do anything in regard to that child growing up but pay out some money if he chooses. If he had been thinking he would have known people lie and took steps to prevent things even in a marriage or other committed relationship.

And we don't know if she did lie and got pregnant, or if he is just saying that so he wouldn't have to pay support. Either way I'm all for personal responsibility in all aspects of one's life!

11th-Mar-2006 06:00 pm (UTC)
Now that's the best icon I've ever seen! Too bad it was necessary right?
11th-Mar-2006 10:34 pm (UTC)
I gotta kinda agree with the right to walk away. There ARE women out there who trick men into getting them pregnant. This is something that would ultimately be abused, however, on that I'm sure.
12th-Mar-2006 12:48 am (UTC)
Okay, goooood point that I didn't consider. Noted.
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