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BACK DOOR BOY IN A FRONT DOOR WORLD
OUTSIDE OF SOCIETY - THAT'S WHERE I WANT TO BE
Open Thread 
30th-Sep-2008 10:13 am
CALLING CONSERVATIVES & CONSERVATIVE LEANING INDEPENDENTS

I would like someone to explain to me how McCain/Palin would be a better choice than Obama/Biden in your own view.

If you have any thoughts on the subject, please leave a comment explaining your position and let's have a discussion.

I really want to hear from people who plan to vote McCain/Palin, so if you have them on your friends lists, please direct them to this post so that they may have an opportunity to offer their US 02¢.

This thread is open to all. I would ask that everyone show respect in comments, if you have a bone to pick with someone do it on your own LJ or message the person privately. Discuss all you want, constructive argument and debate is welcome - but I'm not putting up with people being assholes for the sake of being assholes, so don't come out of the gate like that at someone - hear them out first. This goes for liberals and conservatives alike. My blog, my rules.
Comments 
(Deleted comment)
30th-Sep-2008 06:30 pm (UTC)
I'm actually seeing more of them trying to nail Pelosi for her BIG MEANIE! speech on the floor, which is a new level of insanity. As to why they are blaming Obama? I assume that is what logically follows when you consider the timeline. On the day McCain suspended (insert eyeroll here, you can't call it a campaign suspension and continue operating busines as usual - none of his campaign staffers knew anything about it when contacted by the media for details, campaign ads still ran on network tv, etc.) Obama called him with an offer to make a joint statement. Rather than calling him back immediately, he calls Bush first - then calls Obama back to inform him of his choice to suspend and postpone Friday's debate. Obama agres to the WH meeting with Bush but not to the postponing of the debate. They both go to DDC, get nothing accomplished really, only McCain gets this mock-credit for some reason that defies logic. Post debate, he maintains that he needs to get back to DC and work on the bailout bill, accusing Obama of working on the sidelines and calling it in - but instead of returning to the Floor, goes to the swankiest restaurant in DC with his wife, Joe Lieberman, and HIS wife - then goes home to his condo in DC and takes a few phone calls. Of course, the base wants to hear that it was all Obama's fault, so that's what they get.

Did I mention that he never even bothered to read the 3 page bailout proposal that was initially put out by Paulson with the magic number of $700B with no basis in real data analysis? Of course not, because McCain has only ever been in support of deregulation. Obama isn't for that, ergo it must be all his fault.

That's my guess. And yes, leaving those who created the mess in positions to repeat the same mistakes is a HUGE clusterfuck - I agree completely.

Let's not forget that Dems also have a big part of the blame for all of this as well, if for no other reason than for their part in the "affordable morgage" nightmare and perpetuating the whole idea of living beyond your means with no real accountability of sense of personal responsibility - because they did it too. Remove the element of greed and deregulation gone wild by those who profited, there's still blame to go around.

30th-Sep-2008 04:18 pm (UTC)
This is not completely on topic, but have you seen this article about what makes people vote Republican?
30th-Sep-2008 04:53 pm (UTC)
Thought-provoking. Thanks for posting that.
30th-Sep-2008 04:40 pm (UTC)
Ok, I will give this a try, with trepedation. Last time I attempted a discussion on a liberal leaning blog, I was hit with considerable nastiness.

I am truly afraid of Obama. I look at the type of people he has as friends/advisors/associates and I worry. You know the saying that goes something like *you are known by the friends you keep*? Wright, Ayres, and some other rather unsavory folks I cannot think of right now. I know he is pushing for change from the current administration, but some of it includes more government in my life and I just don't want that. I don't believe Obama can do what he says for people without raising taxes and my middle income status cannot take anymore of that. And yeah, I know that McCain is being linked to the Bush administration, but, I'm not convinced McCain has that much to do with Bush et al. (In fact, McCain is too liberal for my taste, too ;p ) Was that worth $.02?
30th-Sep-2008 05:12 pm (UTC)
I hope this doesn't come across as mean or nasty or anything negative, but I'm curious. What you laid out is a set of reasons to not vote for Obama, but nowhere did I see a single reason to vote for McCain, other than he's Not-Obama. Did I misread something, or is McCain == NotObama sufficient?

I'm now living in Canada, and am watching the Canadian election ads with great interest. The Conservatives' ads are all listing reason after reason after reason why one should not vote for either the Liberal or New Democratic parties, but never state any explanation for why one should vote Conservative - nothing, at all. A ton of reasons to not vote for "Them", but absolute silence on why to vote for "Us".

Edited at 2008-09-30 05:32 pm (UTC)
30th-Sep-2008 05:33 pm (UTC)
Pointer posted, per request. :-}}}}

(Edit: Dialup sux. And doesn't swallow. Grrrrr.)

Edited at 2008-09-30 05:34 pm (UTC)
30th-Sep-2008 06:45 pm (UTC)
Thanks, babydoll! *smooch*
30th-Sep-2008 05:44 pm (UTC)
Are you familiar with mccain_palin08. It's mostly full of ultra-crazies - as opposed to people who are pretty much moderate and identify as Republican - but it can give you an idea of their perspective.
30th-Sep-2008 05:47 pm (UTC)
Ahem...not mostly ultra-crazies. Just people with a different view of things. There are a lot of moderates there.
30th-Sep-2008 06:02 pm (UTC)
I plan to vote for McCain/Palin because I'm a conservative. I'm a conservative because:

I believe in smaller government. (Both sides of the aisle have proven that the more money we give them the more corrupt and wasteful they become.) I believe I'm better at managing my money than government. Obama says he wants to give 95% of American's tax cuts, but 95% of Americans don't pay taxes, so the math just doesn't work out. He says he wants to help the middle class, and only raise taxes on those who make $250,000 and up, but in some parts of the country, those who make $250,000 ARE the middle class. They have families to support, mortgages to pay, college tuition, etc.

I believe in compassion and charity on a private level. I don't need the government to take my money to help someone in need. I do that myself, as do most of the people I know and the small business my husband works for. This ties in with the above, where the less money I have to give the government, the more I have to give to charitable causes myself. So basically, the less entitlement programs, the better.

Naturally, I don't want the government in charge of my health care, since it's obvious that they can't even handle the programs they're already in charge of. There is a way to fix the health care system in the private sector, so that more American's have coverage.

I don't have to believe that global warming is man made in order to still be environmentally responsible. Government doesn't need to dictate to me at what temperature I can keep my house or what kind of vehicle I can drive. I'm perfectly capable of taking care of my little portion of this great earth, without worshiping it or putting it ahead of human life.

Coinciding with the above, I believe there are ways to produce our own energy here in the US without screwing up the environment. Nuclear, solar, wind, even drilling is safer for the environment than it used to be.

I believe that life begins at conception. Calling an unborn child a fetus or a clump of tissue or referring to abortion as "reproductive privacy" doesn't change that fact. As someone who could not conceive a child of my own for eight years, I looked into adoption several times. The waiting list for a baby is years. The cost is more than I could ever afford. Yet millions of babies are being aborted every year, most because they are simply inconvenient. How sad for the families out there who would happily adopt one of those inconvenient babies. I did finally conceive and bear two children of my own, and now look to adopt an older child in foster care in the future. I would even adopt a baby who survived an abortion if it were allowed, and it wouldn't matter to me what health problems that baby had. Compassion isn't only for the healthy.

I believe that a bully is a bully, and all the reasoning in the world isn't going to change that. War sucks, but sometimes it is necessary. My son was being repeatedly picked on by his cousin--constant hitting and pushing. He wouldn't stop no matter how many times he was asked or told. Finally my son socked him in the stomach. One time. He's never been bothered by his cousin since. On a larger scale, that's how I feel about tyrants and dictators. You can't talk them into being reasonable. You can try talking and sanctions (and I'm not against trying), but at a certain point you have to realize and admit it's not working.

I'm 38 years old. I didn't come to these conclusions yesterday. I'm not brainwashed, delusional, mentally ill or just plain stupid. And the more people speak of conservatives that way, the more conservatives they create. People get tired of being labeled a certain way, simply because they're views are different. I don't think that most liberals are any of the above either. They're allowed to disagree with me, and if they can articulate why they do in an intelligent way, they will gain my respect. I simply want the same respect from them as well.

Thank you for asking in a respectful way.
30th-Sep-2008 06:53 pm (UTC)
I really appreciate you taking the time to answer so thoughtfully. While I disagree with you on many of your points, the views you have are for you to live with and don't have to agree with mine - we have to decide how we feel about these things by our own standards I suppose, and I can certainly appreciate that.

If you would ever like to discuss individual issues for compare/contrast between us, I would happily engage you - I am certain we both might learn something new.
30th-Sep-2008 07:30 pm (UTC)
My partner and I were at a sports bar Saturday night watching some football, and I had an interesting conversation with a young McCain supporter. She appeared to be in her early 20's and very smart and well-spoken. She said that her family has always been Republican, and that everyone in her family was strongly behind John McCain. She said that she "fell in love with him" in 2000 and respects him as a leader.

She said that she has "alot of gay friends" and isn't caught up on the social issues, and is more liberal on those types of things. I pointed out to her that if McCain gets elected, the types of Supreme Court justices that he appoints will not share her views on those issues (she said she is pro-choice), but she insists that McCain is a moderate and will not appoint far-right judges.

She said that one of her biggest concerns is taxes, and she believes Obama will raise them. When I point out to her that Obama has already pledged numerous times that anybody making 250k or less will not see any tax increases, she basically said that she didn't believe him, that "democrats always raise taxes."

She echoes comments from my brother, a McCain supporter, who votes mostly because he thinks the GOP will keep his taxes low. (Not sure how that squares with Dubya's term, but whatever... he doesn't listen to me when it comes to politics.)

I'm sure there are many reasons why folks vote for McCain but I think this notion that Dems = Higher Taxes is high on the list.
30th-Sep-2008 07:52 pm (UTC)
It's odd. I've never sympathized with tax-aversive voters, probably because I've 1.) benefited from social programs funded by taxes and 2.) never been in the right tax bracket to feel a real pinch to my prosperity from income lost to taxes. Not sure what tax bracket that is, but obviously many people feel their tax payments are a burden.

Now, what the asshats in power do with my tax money is something that gets me angry, often. I've always figured taxes are the price of admission into a nice country to live in.
30th-Sep-2008 10:23 pm (UTC)
Ask people like this if they have any idea what the top tax bracket rate was during President Eisenhower's administration. Chances are, they'll be so far wrong they'll be shocked witless when you tell them it was 91% from 1954-1963. Of course, that was the top bracket of 24, applying to income over $200,000; in today's money that would be income over a bit more than $1.5 million.

The top bracket didn't drop below 70% until the early 1980s and the advent of the Reagan Disaster.

And the REASON "Democrats always raise taxes" is to clean up the fiscal mess they're left by Republicans who cut taxes without regard to economic reality.

Edited at 2008-09-30 10:24 pm (UTC)
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